Cameron Teone: Pros & Cons of The Seduction Community Part II, “The Dark Side!”
In the first part of this article, we talked about ways the seduction community can be helpful to a person. It provides a reference point and gives people a road to follow. It provides a path whereas before the person was driving blind.
Giving men a starting point is great. It’s helpful! So then, what’s the problem? Problems arise when what started as a venture to enable you to become better in attracting women suddenly becomes a religion.
It’s when someone has become so mechanical and robotic that everything in that person’s mind is a tactic or socially calculated move. What started as a frame of reference is now an obsession. The person no longer enjoys the interaction and camaraderie within a group of people, but he starts examining it like some neurotic mess. Instead of having fun, he is thinking, “Who has higher social value here? What DHV should I use? Was that a neg the person just used on me? No wait, it sound more like cocky/funny.”
Then it even gets more extreme and the Seduction Community robot becomes really easy to spot in any public setting. You may make, [what would appear to most people] to be an innocent request. You ask a guy politely, “Hey man, would you mind passing over that bottle of ketchup?”
He is now caught in a whirlwind of strategic mess. He is like a cow caught in a Kansas Tornado spiraling down. His thoughts are scrambled: “He just asked me to do something. If I do it, I would not be Alpha. Alpha males don’t listen to people. They give orders. Passing over the Ketchup bottle would be a beta thing to do. Maybe I’ll spill the Ketchup and that will be a DHV.”
And all you did was politely ask for the Ketchup.
That guy is now a complete mess. Everything is a tactic. He also assumes that of other people. “She just told me that her sister is sick. She has the swine flu. What does this mean? Should I neg or DHV? Is this a test? Maybe she is testing to see if I am a real man. What would Mystery do? What would Neil Strauss do?”
Sometimes, the answer is: Her sister is really sick. Get over it. It’s not a devious plot against you.
If you are not entrenched in seduction community, then you may read this and think it’s a joke. Surely, I am exaggerating to make a point. The sad thing is that I am not. Chances are likely that you’re bound to come across someone who resembles what I described above. They’re in every town and village these days.
When what started as an endeavor to enrich your life turns to an obsessive path of external validation through the approval of random women as well as sex addiction, you’ve ventured deep into the Dark side of the Seduction community. The adjectives that describe you can fall into a various range: Weird, insincere, mechanical, contrived, sex-addict, and more….
You’re now so fucked, and you don’t even know it.
This is when I have weird conversations with people that are creepy to the rest of the world. One of my acquaintances here in Los Angeles who is deeply entrenched in the seduction community turns to me and says, “You know, I find that if I refrain from masturbating, I have more motivation to go out and approach girls. It helps to push me to get out there more.”
I reply:
“Really? But you just told me you were already seeing a couple of girls, and you have 3 dates set with girls you met on various online personals.”
He tells me, “Yeah, but I still find that if I hold out on masturbating, I have more motivation to go sarging and approach even more girls.”
That’s like saying, I have a fridge full of food, but I am going to purposely starve myself, so I have more motivation to go food-shopping at the supermarket.
This is when a person has completely crossed to the dark side. He now thinks of approaching women as something he “Must” do at all costs. It’s a sport. He cannot remember how he got into it, why he does it, or what his purpose is. It’s just that he feels better about himself momentarily upon doing getting a few phone numbers, or “Laying a girl.”
Another guy I know, who even taught for a while, (who I no longer keep in touch with. btw) now cruises through Westwood where UCLA students hang out. 3 to 4 hours a day, he trolls the streets and various venues seeking out Asian girls to bring to his apartment. (These are girls referred to as “FOBs” or “Fresh Off the Boat” even by other Asians.) Some days, he succeeds, and some days he does not. Yet, he is out there, walking the streets of Westwood every day seeking new blood, hunting down unsuspecting Asian women who speak broken down English.
I’ve been down that road of being an approaching maniac. (Although I was never as fucked up or twisted as the guy who is Stalking the streets of Westwood as we speak! He is one of the worst cases I’ve ever seen.) When you’re in it, you can’t see that it’s just slightly a bit weird. When you step away from it, the picture becomes more clear.
What’s the solution? Every person has to figure out his/her own purpose and passions in life. Life I often tell people: The seduction community is like Radiation. Sometimes it’s necessary to fix your ailment. Too much of it can destroy a person.
Too much of this stuff is how you get men so obsessed and paranoid that they ask the farcical questions I mentioned recently in another article. Questions like: Is it a test when she tells you her sister has cancer? This is when person has lost perspective of normal socialization and has become engulfed in seduction advice.
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In conclusion, refer to the old saying, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.” The Seduction Community has many faults, which I point out repeatedly and often in my various articles. However, it’s also a good tool for providing a reference point. Too often I see outsiders bash the community with an even worse alternative. They provide an alternative that is completely creepy and ineffective.
The issues emerge, when what started as an attempt to become more attractive, becomes a full fledged religion. When your entire life revolves around discussing DHVs, Tests, Negs, higher/lower value, you’re seriously screwed and you don’t even know it.
What’s the solution? Take advice from coaches whose advice makes sense to you. Too often I see men in their 30s and 40s taking bootcamps from some outfit that has hired a 22 year old kid to teach them how to live their life by having a nice routine stack and wearing peacock clothing. Well, I don’t actually “see” it often. I get emails afterwards, or hear the horror stories when I do a phone consult with a client.
In the quest for dating mastery, it’s important to keep perspective. It’s essential to not lose common sense.
Unfortunately, in the zeal for pickup artistry, too many men lose sight of what made them successful in the first place.
Don’t jump from method to method. Find what jives with you and practice that. Be willing to apply yourself and remember your purpose. In this case, the purpose of why you even sought advice: To have more success in your dating life, not to become entangled in some modern day cultish lifestyle.
A good teacher who knows what he is teaching has to understand where to start you off individually and give you that point of reference. Grandiose schemes won’t do it. Similarly, telling people to “Just accept the way you are and profess your love is not going to cut it.” Just as telling men to cruise through supermarkets asking, “Hey, how is the Tuna? What kind of a sandwich do you recommend” Is not going to really help the person much. Most of the guys who seek dating advice have already tried doing what I just mentioned and it hasn’t worked for them.
That’s why they found their way to the “Seduction Community” in the first place!!!
For this reason, the few dating teachers I do recommend are normally guys who have come up the ranks within the community. They are the guys who have a good understanding of attraction and dating, and can provide a good reference point. On the same note, they realize the negative aspects of it, especially since they have been through it themselves.
On the same token, that person who is a competent teacher has to be able to provide you with the essentials that you need and not instill a religion or doctrine in your mind. If you ask him extensive questions about “Negs” and is “Reading a book a DHV?” and “If she says she has to put gas in her car, is she testing me?”….. He ought to be able to slap you sill across the face to wake you up.
• If you’re going to pay money for a bootcamp/workshop/ or to meet someone for personal coaching, then you want someone who understands both sides of the equation.
There are very few guys who can diagnose your issues from both a MICRO and a MACRO View. Both are important. Example of a Micro-view: Let’s say you have experience the following pattern: You talk to women, and things are going seemingly well, but after 5 minutes, they always seem to fall apart. Well, there are 3 or 4 main reasons as to why that is occurring and an experienced coach will pinpoint your problem. It’s like being a mechanic for social interactions. That coach knows how to help you fix that broken piece in your interactions.
Just as importantly, that coach has to understand how to help you socialize, fit in, and create a worthy lifestyle from a macro perspective, looking at the bigger picture from a bird’s eye view. This is the Macro-view. It’s creating an over all lifestyle where you are able to have a large social circle, and have people generally like you and want to include you in their parties, get-togethers and various activities.
You may not admit it publicly but you know that you’d enjoy people calling you to invite you to events.
”Hey, we’re having a casual BBQ close to the beach. Come by, have a few beers!” Or “We’re playing a game of flag football this weekend with the guys. No super athletes in there, just a fun game. Come and make it.”
The latter part is what community engulfed dating teachers miss. They spent so much time trying to “Sarge” and prey on their environments, that they become dubbed as “Weird” and receive the unflattering label of “There is something really off about that dude.”
Hence, a good coach has to understand both sides. He must be able to correct your technical errors and help your interactions while enabling you to have a more pleasant overall social life where you enjoy social gatherings, parties, with other people.
There is a reason why I’ve posted this on Stephen’s website as well. He is one of the handful of guys whom I can recommend. He understands BOTH sides. He can discuss DHVs, Negs, and tactics with the best of them. Yet, he realizes the bigger picture.
80% of the guys teaching live workshops and bootcamps out there currently cannot help you. I am sorry I can’t sugar coat it any better, but there is not much they can do for ya. They may help you marginally, but you’re not paying $1500 for marginal help. In some cases, they’re weird robotic people who’ll do their best to recreate the same in you. Becoming like them generally equates to not having ANY male friends or (females ones for that matter.)
Hence, choose carefully. 20% of the guys teaching workshops are qualified and I can only personally recommend a handful. If you’re going to get some help in improving your success in dating and attracting women, choose a coach who can help improve your lifestyle, but one who understands social interactions well enough to give you a reference point!
Find a Place to Begin. Know the place you want to go. Understand the Road to get from here to there.
That’s the key to having balance in your growth in this arena.
Cameron Teone
www.attractwomenanywhere.com
About the Author: Stephen Nash is the founder of Cutting Edge Image Consulting. He is an Original Pick-up Artist and a well documented expert. Stephen has worked with thousands of clients, and is the author of the best-selling 
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shiro | Jun 19, 2009 | Reply
Awesome post, totally relate to the dark side since I went thru it last year. It’s really a psychological effect of wanting to fill the void, making up lost times. My instructor was great and tried to tell me but I just couldn’t see the light that time.
I’m gonna semi quote him. “Everyone can get laid but not everyone can teach”
These self improvement stuff are never easy.
Erika | Jun 20, 2009 | Reply
I thought of Cameron last night when my girlfriend and I were out at Americano.
We were minding our own business, having a pretty intense conversation actually, and a guy approached us. Within five minutes, he started talking about how much he likes to “lick ass.” At first it was just uncomfortable, but after he continued to say it about forty times, it became utterly ridiculous.
After the “vibe” dropped through the floor, he then moved on and proceeded to cold approach pretty much every other “set” in the bar. Presumably using the same “ass licker” line.
So, yes, I thought of Cameron’s articles, and I told my girlfriend,
“That guy’s problem is he found the seduction community, but he doesn’t ‘get it’ yet.”
Michael | Jun 21, 2009 | Reply
I can totally relate. When I first got into this, I got kind of weird with this stuff. I spent a lot of time searching the Internet for “coolness in a bottle”–you know, give me a few things to say and a way to dress and I would be cool.
I came to realize that it doesn’t really work like that. I have learned that we are communicating whether we are cool or not all the time, from the way we react to things to our body language, to the way we dress, to how we go after (and how we talk about) our hobbies and passions. It’s not really about routine stacks. It IS much more about how we live our lives even away from women.
For example. I am right now in a different city for the summer. I am making it a point today (from driving around and using mapquest) to learn my way around the city. Is it to help my dating/social life? Yes, but in a way I never would have thought of earlier in my life. See, what is going to happen when I find myself in front of someone and it comes out that I don’t know my way around the city? What would that say about me as a person, my leadership ability, how I approach my life?
Also, when I approach women now, I find myself thinking less about the specific rules, and more about the energy I want to put out there. I tend to have an intense energy, and I have learned to quiet that down in the right way. Anyway, I am seeing the results.
No one can make a guy cool. A good coach (or good program) can talk about the mindsets of a genuinely cool and successful guy, and give you a roadmap to get there yourself. But each of us has to put in the work ourselves. It’s not easy, but it is worth it.
Stephen Nash | Jun 22, 2009 | Reply
Michael -
Bravo! Exactly the idea…live fully, and take care of what you must take care of. Take your life seriously, and others will respect that. “Becoming” is slow, arduous and challenging - but, as you clearly say at the end…’worth it’.
Keep us posted!
Sn.
Michael | Jun 23, 2009 | Reply
Will do. Thank you for your help!
Amir | Jun 24, 2009 | Reply
Beautiful article. This is what i was doing 1 year back. I have known this community for the past 3 years. I started with david d, carlos xuma, brian tracy, and at that moment i thought what a lucky guy i am now. But was i really lucky? Then my interert growr further and i want to know every single trick that exist on this planet. I was so obsessed with the material that i was hnvesting on an average 4 hours a day on dating material, trying to learn nd absorb every new material that exist on this planet. John alexander, jugler, pua 101, rsd, style, stephen nash, every alpha material, every inner game material material, badboy, etc. During the first 2 years i got only 1 gf nd that too a flake one. Then to my frustration i started looking where the core prob was. What i find did change my life in the part 1 year. The things were: i was already a sane man nd dont require any inner game material. Secondaly being alpha is a very non sense thing nd being natural for who i was, war the best, thirdly no advice is of use unless you do it practically but the pitfall that it offers is that yov cannot learn cold approach overnight you only learn it maybe after 1000 attempt or so nd definately i am not on this world to be a pick up artirt but to enjoy my life, and fourthly whenever i war doing these stuff i was not at all enjoying it.
Amir | Jun 24, 2009 | Reply
(Continued…)
So i started looking for the answers. In that quest i thought how this whole thing can be learned. The very obvious answes was.. .. Go nd socialize. We are social animals nd learn everything practically. So i started spending my time with my male friend, almost 5 hours a day. To my surprize it was the thing that i love the most. Also as i was interacting my conversation skills, rapport skills, humor, being responsible, vibing, connecting with people started to become excellent. I throw every dating material that exist with me.
Amir1701 | Jun 24, 2009 | Reply
(Cont….)
After learning every damn article and product on dating, what i can say about community is that 95 percent of the advice is crap.
The advice that i find helpful was
1. Stephen nash on warm approach and socializing
2. Sean messenges rapport tips
3. Oliver t. On emotional connection
4. Community article on… Chivalry, fashion grooming nd health, chemistry, vulnerability.
5. Adam lyons new book. This book bring me to what i was in natural.
Stephen Nash | Jun 25, 2009 | Reply
Wow Amir - thanks for these comments. I think you’ve clearly roadmapped here what a lot of guys experience (including myself) when they stumble upon the dating community. There is a certain strong need for “immediate” results, which are few and far between usually. Yet, one becomes addicted to the sensation of hope that is provided via marketing and gimmickry. So, a guy will buy everything he can get his hands on in hopes of finding the key to it all. The trouble is, there is no actual key. It’s a PROCESS…and it takes time.
Lucky for you you’ve been able to find some things which work, and discard the rest. Many guys are not so lucky unfortunately. In fact, the coaches out there are often WAY more screwed up than the students. A coach is forced - by nature of being in business - to keep generating new things, to keep going out, to keep approaching, to stay in the scene when the best thing for him would be to leave. There are plenty of examples of this.
The best way is to find a coach, or a couple of programs which appeal to you and your mentality - and then, go use them to their fullest extent. Don’t confuse yourself with a multitude of sources, as it will mud-up the waters.
Then, give yourself some TIME as it is, like I said, a PROCESS that one must undergo to learn real skills that work in real situations on real people. There is no short cut, there is no quick fix. If you cannot accept that, you will be frustrated before the sun goes down. If you can, there is real hope for development and growth.
Stephen Nash
Amir | Jun 25, 2009 | Reply
Some more things.
I am already good looking so obviously i dont need max part of this material. But in the start i thought david d cocky nd funny was a great thing but it actually backfires me when i did try. I also think that the concept of women testing men was a great thing infact mystery nd other coaches gives you a trick to answes those shit tests. It says that never answer a woman directly also same thing is told by david d but they are not telling you 3 things. Let me tel u those 3 things. 1) if a girl is asking you personal question then it means she is interested in you, so try to build rapport at that moment nd dont try to act cool. 2) i find that out of 20 girls only 1 girl like my way of anrwering shit test. Why? Because as i am gomd looking sm i dont need to make sum1 attracted to me they are already attracted to me the rest of the 19 girls but my shit answer made them believe that i am not interested. 3) as i live in india so here the mort basic game may work. This means the concept of shit test is a shit and crar concept.
Amir | Jun 25, 2009 | Reply
I am making a blog and in thir i will put only those those thing which really are of ny importance. No inner game crap because first of all let me tell you that every body is sane in this world nd if they are not then they cant find these material. Secondaly this material is so addictive just like drugs that you wil start living your life on inner game material itself nd will fuck your life with yous hand also you wil start thinkink that you have lots of prob and to remedise those prob you will search for more material which wil make you an ill nd insane human.
The blog will contain no alpha concept because by being alpha you are changing a natural men of yourself by installing alpha character which are not natural to you. Listen ‘every human is perfect hn hir own ways’. You wont enjoy this new alpha man in yourself as its not actually true you.
Cameron Teone | Jun 25, 2009 | Reply
Amir,
You sound like some of the guys who send me emails, frustrated after having taken various “Bootcamps” and still have no success in their dating lives. Trying to get better at this stuff can be confusing due to so many sources of advice, mostly from guys, who are NOT Socially savvy themselves. That’s one of the biggest issues.
Other guys experience some success but become lost in the world of “Sarging” and lose perspective on all reality. They forget why they came in to the Community in the first place. All they know is that they have a compulsion to sarge like an alcoholic does to drinking booze.
I think both Stephen and I have been there.
On a different note, you should have listened to my audio product. Then you would not have been running around trying to do cocky/funny all the time, insulting people. And you would have had more success.
Sounds like you figured it out on your own, after paying a harsh price.
Take care
Cameron
Amir | Jun 25, 2009 | Reply
No i didnt buy ny product. I was on bitseduce.
Cameron Teone | Jun 26, 2009 | Reply
Amir,
Your posts are amazing. You definitely should have your blog and you should write dating tips every day. The confused people out there need to hear “Every person is perfect in his own way.”
By the way, I realize English is not your first language, but what I don’t get is how you can spell bigger words such as “Importance” and “Socialize” but slip on “Any” and “There.” Regardless, I am sure that we all agree your blog will be amazing.
Take care
CT
Amir | Jun 26, 2009 | Reply
Yeah english is not my 1st language but i have studied it since childhood. Further the mistakes i made in my last posts were due to the fact that i was using my cellphone to type them and post them too.
Amir | Jun 26, 2009 | Reply
I dont care if you took what i am writing and present to others as your own material and i believe u wont do it because you seems to be a nice guru.
Why you dont try cocky and funny?
1. If you are good looking it will backfire you.
2. If you do it on a girl other than hb 9 or 10, again it will backfire you.
3. If you are a newbie stay away from this arsenal box because only pickup artist can pull a girl using c/f
4. Read it thousand of times but still you wont understand whats this C/F is all about.
5. If you get the concept 1001 th time then i can say with surity that you still havent get it.
6. Suppose you get the concept 1001 th time then i am again sure that you cannot make your own cf lines. So u have to get it canned and wh ile delivering it you will definately appear fake.
7. If your cf line gets a shit response from a girl then you dont have any back up plans as you are not a pickup artist or a natural cf guy
8. You dont know from where you have to start using it, upto what extent and upto which stage you have to stop
so why spend so much of brain power in this. Fuck this concept.
Amir | Jun 26, 2009 | Reply
Eye opener on eye contact- every pick up guide talks about eye contact. They say hold strong eye contact with woman. Basically its a very common topic and every guru is presenting this concept in a wrong manner. Making eye contact basically comer from the concept of conveying confidence to others. Now they are giving this advice to the shy people who always look down during a interaction with any one. So basic idea was to look towards the face of other nd not the earth. So they came up with a idea of having direct eye contact but they again forget to tell when to have a direct eye contact and when not. Moreover the alpha concept tells yov the moment when you need to have a direct eye contact and when not. They say that look directly when telling them something while look away when listening them to show that you are high status. Tch tcg tch… What a shit advice they are giving you. I think that if you hold eye contact while deliuering your conversation then you cannot go inside your own memories and emotions if your eyes are locked.
So u will appear fake in your talks. Also its not like that you always look away when saying something. Just be natural and dont learn anything about eye contact from pick up books.
Michael | Jun 26, 2009 | Reply
I learned an awful lot from Stephen. I can tell you my 3 stages for me personally:
Stage 1: Not really doing anything. My life with women, actually my life period, wasn’t what I want it to be, but my attitude was typical, ‘you know, what can I do?’.
Stage 2: Putting myself out there, but getting my coolness from others. I was approaching and approaching like crazy. I spent a lot of time Sarging–hanging out in grocery stores, coffee shops, malls, and so on. I call this the “That Guy” phase of my life. I got my validation from how cool women responded to me and how my more timid friends admired how ballsy I was. I didn’t have any real passions outside of getting good with women though.
Stage 3: I just started this phase, but this is where I want to be. Realizing that coolness comes from how I live my life. I’m developing passions and interests that have nothing to do with women. I’ve stopped reading Community literature, realizing that it is NOT about more information, it IS INSTEAD about doing the basics well. When I see a woman I truly want to me, I meet her. I have also seen that I do not have to approach every woman I see whom I think is cute though. Cold approaches are great, but they get their power from how I live my life AWAY FROM pickup, and also HOW SELECTIVE I am. (A great way to get that funny feeling is to do ‘too many’ cold approaches. It makes me feel ’sketchy’.)
Nick | Jul 2, 2009 | Reply
Hi all
I identify totally with what was said about wanting something
) lat week and it was interesting if a big weird. I am on the verge of signing up to a ‘day game’ bootcamp. It all seems though ok for guys up to 30, but for older guys it can seem wrong and forced.
to happen. It’s reassuring to know other are in the same boat.I went to a pua seminar in London ( I’m a real London born Londoner by the way
I’ve been doing online but that is very very hard work .
Mark | Aug 13, 2009 | Reply
Has not the same essential point been made in what is ostensibly the focal point of origin of the community, in the novel The Game? In case anyone failed to notice the plotline, Strauss in the novel actually points out the resemblance to the Lord of the Flies, and the downward spiral of suspicion, plotting, paranoia, etc. in Project Hollywood.
The entire language of the community gets folded back on itself, as though it were a psycholgoical and sociological model that exhausts all human interaction, between men and men and men and women: Tyler Durden and others start to apply the concepts they are using not only to approaching women but to their interactions with other men.
As Bart Simpsons says when asked if he has never heard of the story of the boy who cried wolf: ‘Nah, I only read halfway, it was boring.” Anyone would do well to take the more sinister aspects The Game demonstrates to heart as much as hte obvious take of hope for the average guy it is.
It appears to me that the work of people like Stephen is counter-balancing the dangerous, sinister and self-destructive tendencies in the community. The community is growing up, but that won’t be much consolation to those who found it at an immature state…
Jon | Apr 12, 2010 | Reply
Another useless bunch of tripe intended to dissway men from taking an active role in getting good with the opposite sex.
Sure there is some useless info out there but the same could could be said for about half the SHIT I see on cable TV passed off as news. People have to be able, or learn to eventually at some point, tell good advice from bad.
Sure everyone goes through a period when they may start to overthink things ( I have ) but then again I did the same thing when I was first learning to ride a bike… Then once it all became absorbed and intergrated I no longer need to concertrate on my ballance or anything else…
There are people who over analize ANYTHING including seduction, that’s a problem on the indiviudals side.
I’m sorry but this person’s article comes off sounding like another border-line feminist article telling me not to try and make their lives better!!!